Patriotism!

[Miss C]

I know we had this discussion ages ago but...

Seeing the celebrations for 4th July in New York, and the Memorial Day parades in D.C. etc, seeing how much Americans really support and celebrate their nationality and their country and its history and everything it stands for is quite moving.... and you know what, they have no more reason to celebrate and be patriotic than we do... but they do and we don't!! I mean its intense over here, people carry copies of the American constitution around lol! Because they love their country...

I think we should celebrate Britishness a hell of a lot more. Britishness is immense. And we are far cooler than Americans.

 

[Postie]

Totally agree there,but britain has changed so much with all the diff nationalities i.e polish,latvians,pakistanis the list goes on,im very proud to be british and even av a union jack on top of my shed and on my calf but its been losing its way for ages now,ya only av to talk to the old folk to realise that.We av celebrated england for 100s of years were as america nowhere nr that so to them its all new in a way.Our way of celebrating is a lot different to the yanks,they tend to go over the top were as we seem more reserved.Visit a england sport occasion,i.e.footy,rugby,cricket and ya can taste the patriosm no 1 does it like the british/english.

 

[Mr Radish]

I am patriotic.

You can love and take pride in your country without disrespecting other nations.

Pride in your country, begins with respect for others. That is why I would never boo a foreign national anthem

We seem to be scared of patriotism in England. All the PC loonies I'm afraid.:|

 

[Miss C]

Postie - America is made up of every different nationality going, that is who they are! (as i'm sure you know) A big botched together mixture of Europeans....there are so few natives that you just don't see them...I don't think that having different nationalities and cultures within the country is a reason not to celebrate Britishness

We are so much more depressive than Americans lol... we talk ourselves out of patriotism (like with the reasons we've just discussed) instead of just whole heartedly going for it.

I think thats a cute attribute of Britishness though, we're a bit miserable and pessimistic! But yes, much more reserved and less cheesy with our celebrations...albeit all our celebrations seem a bit half done by comparison..


Hooray Radish!!

 

[Miss C]

We seem to be scared of patriotism in England. All the PC loonies I'm afraid.:|

Whats a 'PC' loony ? :$

 

[Shooms]

I think we should celebrate Britishness a hell of a lot more. Britishness is immense. And we are far cooler than Americans.

Yes. Yes. & Yes.

 

[Mr Radish]

Whats a 'PC' loony ? :$

Politically Correct Loony.

 

[Ed]

Oscar Wilde said Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.

There's another quote I forget who it's by. something like "Never trust a man who calls a country 'his'."

I've lived for a bit in the US, and a long time in Japan and most of the time in the UK. I have to say I'm proud of all of them, each of them have characteristics I admire, respect and aspire to. The national anthem of all of them at a special occasion or sports event has moved me, put a lump in the throat. But each of them have aspects that make me sad or angry.

I'm not against celebrating Britishness at all, but the two quotes I began with are a warning against the darkside of being too proud of where you are from.

I really think as a species we should be thinking beyond nationality, race, religion or cultures. I like the Socratic idea of being a citizen of the universe. With a British passport.

 

[Miss C]

Oscar Wilde said Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.

There's another quote I forget who it's by. something like "Never trust a man who calls a country 'his'."

I've lived for a bit in the US, and a long time in Japan and most of the time in the UK. I have to say I'm proud of all of them, each of them have characteristics I admire, respect and aspire to. The national anthem of all of them at a special occasion or sports event has moved me, put a lump in the throat. But each of them have aspects that make me sad or angry.

I'm not against celebrating Britishness at all, but the two quotes I began with are a warning against the darkside of being too proud of where you are from.

I really think as a species we should be thinking beyond nationality, race, religion or cultures. I like the Socratic idea of being a citizen of the universe. With a British passport.

I know what your saying, or at least I think I do.. it can get dangerous when coupled with the wrong mind..

But crikey, better to love your country and celebrate it than not to! I see that cynical Brit in you there Ed!

 

[Mr Radish]

Oscar Wilde said Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.

Wilde is incorrect. I know what he means and it certainly fits the BNP / racist stereotype.

However, Wilde seems oblivious to fact one can love your home, but still make it warm and welcoming.

 

[shazza]

Some patriotism is deffo a good thing.
But some do take it toor far..Being a foreigner, so to speak, Ive had people tell me I shouldnt sing the British national anthem and stuff...I AM British!!
Some people misuse the meaning and mistake it for an excuse for racism.
I do like the way Americans celebrate though...good excuse to partay!!!

 

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

Britishness is immense. And we are far cooler than Americans.

Completely agree there, and that's precisely why we DON'T need to shout about it from the rooftops. It's pointless and it's vulgar.

It could be argued that many of these nations who beat the drum so tiresomely about nationality (Americans & Aussies to name but two) do so really out of an inherent sense of insecurity.

Apart from the colour of their passports, most Americans & Aussies who bang on about patriotism have absolutely no reason whatsoever for doing so. In fact they DON'T HAVE a national identity because 300 years ago their "nations" didn't even exist. All this nauseating "God Bless America" nonsense is really just thinly veiled over-compensating for a complete lack of any national heritage or history at all. Or more accurately, the history they do have is really something they should be deeply ashamed of.

I'm with Ed. One world, one nation. We are all global citizens. As he so eloquently put it we are all just citizens of the universe with different coloured passports.

 

[MANC]

i've just failed the UK Citizen Test:| :$ its well hard

Have a go......

Life in the United Kingdom - The Official Practise Citizenship Test

 

[Ed]

I know what your saying, or at least I think I do.. it can get dangerous when coupled with the wrong mind..

But crikey, better to love your country and celebrate it than not to! I see that cynical Brit in you there Ed!

Patriotism and Nationalism have been constantly hijacked throughout history to produce an 'us versus them' mentality. And its very very powerful and dangerous. That's my beef with it. It usually ends in the massive slaughter of people manipulated into supporting it. I'm not saying its all bad, just that it needs keeping an eye on.

I also think when you live away from your country, as you are doing now, I tended to get a bit of a rose tinted view of it. When I came back, what came roaring back were the bits that had always pissed me off. In fact it took me a good few years to get the right balance.

Yeah I love my country and am proud of it. But I don't place that above anything someone else could feel for theirs. It's not a cynicism at all, it's cautious optimism

As for Brits being cool, a couple of episodes of Britain's got talent or the X factor, or perhaps a tv show presented by Danny Dyer should temper your extremism!!! Wherever you go there's cool, but there's always a few knobheads to balance it out!

 

[shazza]

i've just failed the UK Citizen Test:| :$ its well hard

Have a go......

Life in the United Kingdom - The Official Practise Citizenship Test

i got 11 :| .....mostly guesses tho, thats hard!!

 

[seandelier]

There is no such thing as Britishness now but there is nothing wrong with being patriotic about your country or nation. The reason the yanks get really into it is because of the Civil war and the fact that they kicked the British ass. Something to be very proud of in my opinion. Nothing to do with insecurity.

I am very proud of my country but do not feel the need to fly flags and shout it about but if other people want to then good on them.

I do get very embarrassed at the Brits abroad mob mentality when I go overseas though. The euroyobs we used to call them.

 

[Ed]

The other thing is, what is Britishness? You can never really nail it. A lot of what is deemed Britishness, Pimms, Wimbledon, G and T's, Ascot etc has fuck all meaning for a working class raised bloke from Warrington. Churchillian spirit I get. A strong sense of Justice I get. A pioneering spirit to go to other countries and bring good stuff back I get.

Pick up the daily mail (wearing rubber gloves please) and read the poison the write about immigrants, about middle England, about private education. To the million plus readers a day that's what it is to be 'British'. To me a lot of it is destructive, selfish, isolationist, racist, classist..... I could go on.

That's my problem with it, it means different things to different people. And you have to know exactly what you mean, otherwise the BNP or the Mail are telling you what it is, and then it's no longer what you wanted it to be or thought it was.

Right, am now very late for work! Good thread though Chezzer, as ever.

 

[Mr Radish]

Completely agree there, and that's precisely why we DON'T need to shout about it from the rooftops. It's pointless and it's vulgar.

It could be argued that many of these nations who beat the drum so tiresomely about nationality (Americans & Aussies to name but two) do so really out of an inherent sense of insecurity.

Apart from the colour of their passports, most Americans & Aussies who bang on about patriotism have absolutely no reason whatsoever for doing so. In fact they DON'T HAVE a national identity because 300 years ago their "nations" didn't even exist. All this nauseating "God Bless America" nonsense is really just thinly veiled over-compensating for a complete lack of any national heritage or history at all. Or more accurately, the history they do have is really something they should be deeply ashamed of.

I'm with Ed. One world, one nation. We are all global citizens. As he so eloquently put it we are all just citizens of the universe with different coloured passports.

There is little I agree with there.

Australia and the USA do have history, it's just not rooted in the Middle Ages or the 1500's.

Moon Lading, War of Independence, the Gold Rush, Botany Bay, 2 World Wars, Bradman, Crocodile Dundee, Fosters

I have also not met many insecure Australians!

I do agree we all share the same planet, but believe that some differences in nations are important as you clearly denote a difference between the Brits and others.

A generic global citizen sounds really dull. It is our differences that ultimately make us who we are and define identity. These differences can be celebrated positively and with a sence of patriotism and I believe ultimately can pull us together.

With regards to nations having things to be ashamed of, The British Empire can wax lyrical.

I do agree that over the top patriotism can be vulgar and pointless though.

 

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

There is little I agree with there.

Australia and the USA do have history, it's just not rooted in the Middle Ages or the 1500's.

Neither is ours... but ours at least goes back that far... Look back more than 300 years in Oz or American history & the place shared nothing in common with those countries today.

Moon Lading, War of Independence, the Gold Rush, Botany Bay, 2 World Wars, Bradman, Crocodile Dundee, Fosters

My point exactly...

I have also not met many insecure Australians!

Well they're hardly likely to admit it are they :S

I do agree we all share the same planet, but believe that some differences in nations are important as you clearly denote a difference between the Brits and others.

Nope, I denote a difference in heritage, that's all. Brits are no different to anyone else.

A generic global citizen sounds really dull. It is our differences that ultimately make us who we are and define identity.

That doesn't define national identity though... That's like saying all Brits are the same and all are different from all Americans which is bollocks. I share more in common with some Americans than I do with some Brits.

These differences can be celebrated positively and with a sence of patriotism and I believe ultimately can pull us together.

Given the way British people typically "celebrate Britishness" I see nothing positive in it whatsoever. Like Ed says I see it causing far more harm than good.

With regards to nations having things to be ashamed of, The British Empire can wax lyrical.

Very true, but by comparison with other nations, throughout history we have been fairly morally & ethically advanced.

I do agree that over the top patriotism can be vulgar and pointless though.

So why do you condone it? And how do you define "over the top"? That's the problem, it's a can of worms & as soon as you open it, some people somewhere will take it to extremes and thats when the problems start.

 

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

There is no such thing as Britishness now but there is nothing wrong with being patriotic about your country or nation. The reason the yanks get really into it is because of the Civil war and the fact that they kicked the British ass. Something to be very proud of in my opinion. Nothing to do with insecurity.

I am very proud of my country but do not feel the need to fly flags and shout it about but if other people want to then good on them.

I do get very embarrassed at the Brits abroad mob mentality when I go overseas though. The euroyobs we used to call them.

Ah grand scale hypocrisy... excellent!

"No such thing as Britishness but nothing wrong with being patriotic about your country or nation" <--- contradiction in terms.

"Yanks kicked the British ass. Something to be very proud of in my opinion."... "I am very proud of my country"...
Your country is Britain and you are British. You are proud the Yanks kicked your country's ass, yet you love your country. :S

All this "My country is Scotland" is total shite. You just want to be British when it suits you & Scottish when it doesn't.

Hypocrite.